Signs to Know to Prevent Suicide

*Trigger Warning*

In this episode, we discuss signs to know to prevent suicide. If you or a loved one are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1.800.273.8255. There is help available for you.

Suicide continues to be a prevalent issue in our world today. How do we engage in helping those that might be experiencing suicidal ideation? What are the signs to look for and when is the right time to intervene?  New Vista's Director of Community Engagement and Clinic Operations of the Boyle County Hub, Anna Duncan, sits down with us to discuss suicide and the role we can play in preventing this issue that is wreaking havoc in our world today.

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Transcript

Kevin Wallace: 0:11

Hello, and welcome to the good ahead podcast where we host conversations in the areas of mental health, substance use, and intellectual and developmental disabilities. I'm your host, Kevin Wallace with New Vista. I wanted to start this episode off by saying that this conversation could be triggering to anyone that has, in one way or another, been affected by suicide. And if you're having thoughts of suicide, please call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline number at 1.800.273.8255. If you stick around for this conversation, we want to keep reiterating how glad we are that you've joined us to listen in on this very sensitive and important issue of our day. We've titled this episode "Signs to Know to Prevent Suicide". New Vista's director of community engagement and clinic operations of the Boyle County hub, Anna Duncan, and myself hope to shed light on suicide and what you can do to care for yourself and others when it comes to suicidal ideation. So again, thank you for joining us, and enjoy the conversation. Welcome in today, we are going to be talking about knowing the signs to prevent suicide. And so today we have with us, Anna Duncan. Anna Duncan is the director of community engagement, and clinic operations of the Boyle County hub. And so we are so grateful for you to come in to talk about this very difficult conversation to navigate. So thanks and welcome in in.

Anna Duncan: 1:59

Thank you, I'm happy to be here.

Kevin Wallace: 2:00

Yeah. To start. Can you tell us a little bit about what is it about this, about this conversation that you, you can provide a little insight on.

Anna Duncan: 2:10

So I am a Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor, as well, as a licensed psychological practitioner. I have been working in the field for 17 years. I started in outpatient therapy, doing one on one therapy. And now I supervise people who are still doing that.

Kevin Wallace: 2:30

Yeah. So you're in this every day, you gravitate towards this stuff in life, and you're you're able to walk people through some of the more intense things that people may be wrestling through. And so well, thank you for sharing that. And thank you for what you do, because it's very important. As, hopefully, we'll be able to shine a light on. Let's open up this, this conversation by defining some of the things that we might be talking about. And so suicide in general, can you give us kind of a depth a definition of what suicide is.

Anna Duncan: 3:09

So suicide is the act of taking your own life. There are a variety of ways that that can happen. So that's kind of the end of it. The beginning of it is suicidal ideation, it's those thoughts that you have of I don't want to be here anymore. People around me would be better off without me. Those are the beginning signs.

Kevin Wallace: 3:32

Those beginning signs, so there are going to be signs that come from these definitions that we talked about. So let's dig right into the larger conversation that we're going to have which is understanding the signs. How can you pick up some signs of suicidal ideation? What does suicidal ideation look like?

Anna Duncan: 3:52

So overall, that that feeling of not wanting to be here. That loss of interest in things that once interested, you. Things that you used to enjoy doing. Not enjoying those anymore or not wanting to do them. Not taking care of yourself. Maybe it's not getting dressed in the morning or not going to work. Feeling that just wait of what is my purpose. Another sign that is often associated with that idea of suicidal thoughts or intent is self harming. Any type of cutting or burning; any way that someone is intentionally inflicting pain on themselves. I've had parents tell me, isn't that what all middle schoolers do? And it's absolutely not. It is a a huge red flag for someone to start asking more questions to have those difficult conversations about what is your intent? How is this Why are you doing this?

Kevin Wallace: 4:57

Would you say it's it's almost kind of like a cry for help?

Anna Duncan: 5:00

Absolutely. One of the stigmas of suicide, right is people say on I'm suicidal, and it's a cry for it's a cry for attention. It's attention seeking. And I kind of want to say it absolutely is. If somebody's going to the length of saying, I want to hurt myself in one way or another, I want to end my life., we need to as a society take that seriously. That yes, it is a cry for help. It is a cry for attention. And think about what has led a person to that point that this is how they feel like they need to get that attention.

Kevin Wallace: 5:40

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, what would you say that does communicate?

Anna Duncan: 5:44

I think it's that idea of there's something wrong. I'm struggling. I need support. I need help. I can't handle this on my own. Is a lot of what goes into that.

Kevin Wallace: 5:58

Yeah. Yeah, it's, I kind of see that as I really just need a friend. I really need somebody to love on me right now. Because I don't feel like I'm being loved. Right. I think that that phrasing of I'm thinking about killing myself. That is just a cry for help in saying, I really want a friend. Yeah. I really want somebody to show me that I'm, that you care that I'm here. Absolutely. Because if I, if, if if I'm not cared for what's the point? Right. And I think that's why people jump to that conclusion of, well, if I'm not being cared if I if nobody cares, then why. Why would I be why should I be here anymore?

Anna Duncan: 6:48

Yeah. And sometimes people will not come straight out and say, I'm thinking about killing myself. But there may be some of those signs, again, that withdrawal, but also maybe giving things away that are important to them, giving them to people having conversations that feel like a goodbye. Yeah. So paying attention to that can also be a way to help mitigate this.

Kevin Wallace: 7:15

Yeah, like notes that have been written that have been left behind, or videos or Gosh, especially now texts, yes, texts are a huge form of communication,

Anna Duncan: 7:28

for given their animals away, is always a huge interesting. Many times, animals are that little bit of hope that people hold on to and so if they're finding somewhere else, for their animal to live, is a big red flag for me.

Kevin Wallace: 7:47

This is a hard thing to bring out into the open of the suicidal ideation. And many people probably aren't comfortable with vocalizing it face to face. But it could come out in the form of a text, or in the form of social looking at social media, and people posting about it. And that also could be one of those cry for helps like, Yeah, I've seen so much even just on my personal page of Facebook, of people having that cry for help. And it's very clearly just communicating, I'm lonely. I want somebody to care for me. And this is an avenue, I know that people can respond and give me that kind of affirmation that I care, you know,

Anna Duncan: 8:35

Right. And that, there's a little bit of distance when we text somebody, right? There's a little bit of distance when we put something on social media of some kind, that makes us feel safer doing it that we may, like you said, we may not say it to somebody face to face, we may not call them and say it may be easier to say it with that little bit of distance. Right. Right. And I think taking those seriously, yeah, you know, if you have a family member or friend or someone that you know that post something on social media, text you something, taking it seriously that what can I do? Yep. Yep.

Kevin Wallace: 9:17

Even if it is a reoccurring thing, right, you know, even if it is kind of the same thing that you're seeing in this person. And I would say that that's that's also another reason why therapy is so important. You, you want to see that this is a reoccurring thing. And the only way to overcome a reoccurring habit that is ending in that kind of depression and that kind of the only solution is self harm, that hopelessness, helplessness the only way to combat that and no other way to overcome it is really to seek professional help, to help rewire your thinking and rewire your habits to start believing about yourself that you do matter, and that people do care about you, and there are other ways even to receive that knowledge of care from the other person right in this in. And that's not like, you know posting about it is not the only way that you can and I would even argue that's not a healthy way for you to receive that kind of affection from people. There are there are healthy ways to have relationships and to receive care and give care.

Anna Duncan: 10:41

And sometimes we see people who are struggling so much that through a variety of situations have maybe unintentionally isolated themselves and and pushed people who have cared about him away. And so they find that maybe posting on social media is that way to get people to pay attention. And that's one of the things we can do in therapy is help them learn those other ways to rebuild those relationships create those connections that they're craving.

Kevin Wallace: 11:30

And, I know that there's not one specific way that people get to that place, but can you open the door to how somebody might see suicide as a solution to their to the problem of maybe it's pain or loss or unmet expectations or not feeling good about themselves or about life anymore? What? How do you get there? How do you end up at that at that spot?

Anna Duncan: 12:04

So there are 1000 roads to get there. Yeah, but like you said, any type of significant loss pain, whether it's emotional or physical, can get someone to that point. Any type of loss. And we're not here to decide what is a loss that is significant enough to have those thoughts. That's each individual, your past any type of trauma or additional losses, stressors, all of that factors in and can get you to that point. Yeah,

Kevin Wallace: 12:42

Well gosh, even mistakes you've made that like, I don't deserve to live because I did X, Y and Z.

Anna Duncan: 12:49

Yeah. Regret. Yeah.

Kevin Wallace: 12:53

Yeah. And I haven't think of suicide in prisons, you know,

Anna Duncan: 12:57

Absolutely

Kevin Wallace: 12:58

of people that have ended up in prison because of something that they did. And that being, I would imagine in their mind, the kind of like, well, this is my life now. This prison. And what's the point of being here in this situation anymore? Right. The easiest, the quote unquote, easiest solution would be to just stop.

Anna Duncan: 13:24

That level of hopelessness. Yeah, if this is where I am forever, and that can be like you said, in prison, or in some level of pain. Again, like I said, emotional or physical. If you're hopeless about the future, you don't see that in the game that it does get better. Yeah, that's, that's where a lot of this can come in. Which is a prison. Yeah, it's a prison of its own.

Kevin Wallace: 13:49

It is hard to know what to do when you feel when you feel like you're in your own prison. And there's no like you said, hope. Yeah. First up for brighter days ahead. So let's talk about how common these thoughts are. Like, I don't think that this is a very rare thing. And so I think that this is such a big deal, because it's it's something that is stigmatized or is kept in the dark and something like this, if it's kept in the dark ends in the dark. Yes.

Anna Duncan: 14:28

It's a great way to say it.

Kevin Wallace: 14:29

I just hope that this that conversations like these can provide destigmatization of, like, if you're wrestling through this, we can we can tell you why you're not alone in this feeling, and it's okay to talk about it. I think that if if you're wrestling through something that feels like you shouldn't be wrestling through it, and nobody else is having these kinds of thoughts, then I gotta keep it to myself because I've, if if I let this out, if I let this into the bring this into the light with somebody, I'm going to be judged. Yeah, I'm going to be seen as lesser than I'm going to see be seen as weak. And that, of course, leads to a spiraling effect. But if we bring in until light, and then you can see that this is a common thing. And statistics can clearly show that it is a common thing, then there's, there's a way through it. And the way through it is well, what can you tell us? What, what's your way through it?

Anna Duncan: 15:40

Asking for help. That's really the number of times that I've had clients come into my office who have hinted around it, and when I ask, there's almost a sense of relief that, oh, here's somebody that I can talk to you about it. I don't have to hide it. They brought it up with me, so it must be okay. So just knowing that the more we talk about it, the more we d stigmatize having these thoughts that are very common, sometimes they can be very fleeting, and very short term. Other times they're, they're much, much longer and people wrestle with them for a long time. But the more we talk about it, the more that we destigmatize it and help more people.

Kevin Wallace: 16:28

Yes. This is a very hard conversation to have because it is such a private ordeal. Yes. Say you have somebody in your life that you're picking up are having the signs that we've been talking about a little bit and your your concern for them is growing. It's hard to see that situation as I need to intervene. Because what if I'm overstepping? What if I am jumping to conclusion that isn't actually what's going on? I guess my question is, how do you have that conversation with somebody in your life that is exemplifying these these signs that we're talking about? What is the beginning step of having a very hard conversation with somebody?

Anna Duncan: 17:22

Oh, you're absolutely right. It is a very difficult conversation. And if you've not had it with somebody before, it's scary. Because what if you do kind of tip that boat? Yeah, make it, there's always the fear of making it worse. Yes. I can tell you in all my years, I've never asked somebody if they're thinking about suicide, that I've had one of two answers, either No, not at all. Or, Oh, thank you for asking me that. So I want to tell people, don't be afraid to just ask. Say, I'm worried about you. I'm concerned. Are you thinking about harming yourself? Are you thinking about killing yourself? And if you are, let me help you. Let me help you get help. So that you don't have to go through that alone.

Kevin Wallace: 18:14

Yeah, yeah. That's well said. Because I do think that there's a fear on the other side of like, I'm overstepping. I might be offensive if I think that somebody's struggling when they're actually not, or having these thoughts when they're actually not?

Anna Duncan: 18:33

Well, then it may be that you, you ask that question, and maybe the person is not thinking about it. But it also brings light to it's a protective factor. Hey, I care about you enough to ask about you. I care about you enough to be worried about you. And so it gives that person that sense of hope. Even if they had they weren't having the thoughts. It's always nice to know that somebody cares about you.

Kevin Wallace: 18:58

Absolutely. Yeah. A conversation like this is far more indicative of, I care about you. Yes. And I care so much as to show you that I'm willing to have a conversation that's hard and step, step into this, like very unknown space with you, even if it means you're not actually having these thoughts, but what what a great way to show the people in your life that you care just to check in on them.

Anna Duncan: 19:28

And there are other ways you know, you can start saying I'm worried about to you seem to not be interested in going out anymore doing this. I'm worried about you in different ways. But at some point there has to be just that, that question of are you thinking about this? Yeah.

Kevin Wallace: 19:47

So starting a conversation is a major step. Let's continue on in this in this step by step process of say that person is having these suicidal thoughts. What do you do about that? Especially for the people that aren't therapists and right and trained professionals in this area? What What are, what are the things that you can do to help somebody through that? And I, I can take a guess that you're going to want to point them to professional help as well. So that's a major part of this. So how do you bridge the gap between who you are and where where you're at is, I'm just a friend that cares about this person and here's somebody that can help.

Anna Duncan: 20:36

So one, you want to make sure the person is safe, that they're somewhere that they can't harm themselves. Sometimes, this is an impulsive act. So you want to make sure that they're safe in that maybe just sitting on the couch with them and talking to him. Absolutely seeking professional help. There's the national suicide prevention hotline, calling that. Many times having a professional be able to just talk to you for a little bit, help someone understand that this is not uncommon. Helping them see what they can be hopeful of, is what is needed to get them through that moment. Beyond that, they may need therapy, they may need to go and talk with somebody on a regular basis. But there may be other things that that professional can help friends family do to support the person as well.

Kevin Wallace: 21:32

Yeah. Yeah. And there's no quick fix to this either. Now, which is why I think therapy is such a important part of the process of the next step. After like the follow up of a conversation, yes, the conversation itself doesn't solve the issue. It may save the person's life in that moment. Absolutely. But it doesn't prevent it from happening down the road. So therapy is such a major part of of getting the help that you need, not just for the moment that you're in, but for future moments down the road.

Anna Duncan: 22:10

Absolutely. And therapy is beautiful. Yeah, it is this great chance for somebody to come in. And it's scary to come into that first appointment is you don't necessarily know who you're talking to. And we're asking you tough questions. So it's scary. And I respect anybody that comes into it, because it's hard. But it's a beautiful thing to be able to come in and have that focus helps have somebody help you see a different way to look at things, see what other avenues there are, to see that. Maybe there is hope out there.

Kevin Wallace: 22:45

Yeah. Right. Is there anything else in this step by step process that you can think of that we should talk about?

Anna Duncan: 22:52

I guess if you have somebody that you feel like you are not able to keep safe, they're making comments that they have a plan to do something and it's imminent and you're not sure what else to do? Reach out and call your local police department call 911. Our first responders are trained to also be able to manage this. They know the steps to make sure to keep this person safe. Yeah. And sometimes that's, that's the point that we get to.

Kevin Wallace: 23:26

Yeah, yeah, there are emergency services that can help you in managing a crisis situation. Yes, you don't have, you don't have to be the one that perfectly handles this. Right, you can do what you're capable of doing. But if if it is a crisis situation, the best thing that you can do is one play your part in just being there for that person, but two, calling in somebody that is trained professionally to handle this situation as well.

Anna Duncan: 23:57

Right. So often we we think about calling in professionals for any number of other things. When we have a pipe burst in the middle of the night, we don't hesitate to call the plumber to get that fixed. Mental health should be no different. When we have a crisis in the middle of the night, we need to call the professionals to help fix that problem in that moment.

Kevin Wallace: 24:28

Let's take a quick break in the conversation. Take a deep breath. And I'll let this serve as a reminder that the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline number is 1.800.273.8255. And an exciting bit of news to share. Starting July 16. 2022, you'll be able to dial 988 and that will route you to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. This is just one of the many steps our country is taking to increase crisis intervention and get people the help they need when it comes to mental health crisis situations. Okay, back to the conversation with Anna. I think it's important to also recognize that this is a very common topic within the youth of today.

Anna Duncan: 25:21

Yes, unfortunately it's increasing.

Kevin Wallace: 25:22

Yes, it's an increasing thing, particularly in schools and with the way society is moving more technologically. And so there are online communities being built. And unfortunately, with online communities come online bullying, and this being being a very real, and, and dark thing for the kids to be experiencing. So let's talk to the parents for a little bit about signs that you may be seeing in your kid. Or if you're a teacher, you know, how can you be aware of these things going on, in the kids of your classroom, or however you may be involved in a child's life right now.

Anna Duncan: 26:11

So some of those signs are the same any type of withdrawal, that change in grades can be a big one, that withdrawal from sports or after school activities that they were doing, a drastic change in their friend group. But I think the most important thing is, again, let's not make suicide, this stigmatized thing. Let's talk about it. Let's not be afraid to ask, are you feeling like you're going to hurt yourself? Do you feel like you're going to kill yourself? The more parents can normalize that, the more teachers can normalize having that conversation, the better. So that kids no kids take their, their cues from us. Yeah. If we never talk about it. We're telling them that it's not something we it's, you know, it's off limits. Yeah. But if we talk about it, it tells them that it's okay to talk about. Yeah. Years ago, my son was in elementary school, and there was a situation, I don't even remember what that, and he said, we were in the car, if I had to do that, I'd just kill myself. Yeah. And my reaction as a parent was, we don't say that. And I had to check myself because as a mental health professional, I want him to know that if he's feeling like that, he can come to me, he can talk to me about that. And then the same thing as far as talking to our kids about, what do you do if a friend comes to you and says that, oftentimes kids will tell friends more than they'll tell anybody else. And unfortunately, a lot of times they'll say, don't tell anyone. Yeah. Because this is that off limits topic. Right? Yeah. So letting our kids know, you can come talk to me? Yeah, I will make sure that whether it's guidance counselor or teacher or principal, whomever knows so that we can help get this kiddo the help that they need.

Kevin Wallace: 28:16

Yeah, can you give us a kind of a template for what a conversation like this could look like in a kid just get like an example of things that you want to emphasize, and maybe how to communicate that?

Anna Duncan: 28:31

So I think anytime that you can kind of look for those organic ways to bring up a topic, right, like my son, he said that in the car, and we started that conversation of what, what does that mean to you? "I'd just kill myself" And his answer was I'd just be really unhappy. Okay, so let's think about what that really means. So looking for those ways that it comes up just kind of in everyday life and touching on it over and over and over again. But also maybe sitting down and saying, hey, I want to talk to you about something and it's a really scary topic to talk about. But I want to make sure that you and I are on the same page or on the same team. As far as you can come talk to me about it. And then just talking about do you have any do you know anybody that has ever said these things? Have you seen it in movies? Heard it in music? Seen it on the news? Anything like that are great starting points of what does that mean to you? Yeah. Again, like my son, he did not mean it in the way as a mental health professional that I take it, I took it but finding out from them what it means and then talking about it What would happen if you did that? Yeah. And letting them know how you would be impacted.

Kevin Wallace: 30:07

Yeah.

Anna Duncan: 30:10

You know that you, you don't want them to do that you would never want them to do that. You wouldn't want their friends to do that. And so if their friends don't have someone that they can trust, trust me. Yeah. Again, the more we talk about it, the more we destigmatize it, and make it okay for kids to talk about the better. Teachers, coaches, anything like that, having a, it doesn't have to be a huge, long formal conversation, it can be half an hour in the middle of the day, or at a practice or something that just says, Hey, let's talk about this for a few minutes. I want to make sure you all know, you can come talk to me. And if I don't know exactly what to do, I promise you, I'll find out, I will make sure that we get the right thing to do. Yeah.

Kevin Wallace: 31:04

Yeah, I just I sense the the tenderness in the the care in just the way that you're speaking about this. Knowing that, gosh, it really is just such a heartbreaking thing to know that this is such a prevalent issue.

Anna Duncan: 31:26

It breaks my heart that anybody gets to the point that they feel like, this is my best option. Yeah. My goodness, how do we get there? How do we get away from that to, to know that people care about you, people are around you, you have a purpose?

Kevin Wallace: 31:47

Well, kind of coming up for air. And let's let's talk about some positive things that maybe you've seen in this area that has come from hard conversations that you have had or have seen, we're starting to see this becoming a less stigmatized thing, one encouraging thing we can say is that we are moving in in a direction where this is becoming less of a stigmatized thing. And it is becoming more talked about. And so is there any any kind of encouraging things that you've been seeing in your field that that can provide for some hope?

Anna Duncan: 32:29

I think a lot of schools are doing a great job of bringing these conversations in of talking about mental health and how to maintain a good mental health. Having I know, there are school districts that have an anonymous online, almost a reporting system where a student or a parent or somebody can send something in that I'm concerned about this kid this bullying is happening, and can send it in anonymously, and guidance counselors or teachers review that and then follow up with it. So many times kiddos are afraid to say something because they don't want to make their friend mad. They don't want to get them in trouble. So this offers a way for kids to still share that information because they're concerned about their friends without fearing that they're going to get them in trouble.

Kevin Wallace: 33:25

Yeah, the for for all the teachers and the guidance counselor's we appreciate you so much, especially from the past couple of years house how hard this has been.

Anna Duncan: 33:39

Well and absolutely. And that's a great point. So many of these teachers are just getting to know the kids again, yeah, they haven't been in front of them. And if they've been in front of them, we've been dealing with a pandemic. It's been hard. Everybody's been struggling in one way or another. I don't know anybody that's coming through this pandemic without some some scars to show from it some struggles. So teachers are are getting back into it are getting to know these kiddos and they may not know what they were like prior to the pandemic. So again, having that open communication for parents and teachers, maybe parents, as much as anything, kiddos are going to can pick sometimes the most inopportune times to decide, hey, can we talk? I think it's important as parents that we validate their need to talk. If we can talk to him at that moment, we want to capture that desire for them to talk to us. We want to take advantage of that. If there is not a way that we can talk to him at that moment. We want to validate that I want to talk to you can we talk tonight after this and then follow through make sure that you make that time to go follow up with them.

Kevin Wallace: 35:02

Yeah, I just see a reoccurring theme that so much of this really just starts with a conversation and talking about it. Absolutely. So if you're somebody that has had these kinds of conversations where if you're, if you're somebody that is carrying the the desire to know how to have these conversations, we just want to say thank you for listening to us talk about this. And we just appreciate those that are willing to listen in on conversations like this. Because just learning the strategy behind knowing how to hold these conversations, like people go to school for this, you know, like, like, we, like we've been saying, you know, people get trained, and go into, like you, go into their careers with this, this kind of knowledge. But well, I just, I'd so appreciate you for sharing your insight on, on how we can be there for each other. But we we also want to just say thank you to those that are listening, because well, we're just so happy that we have people that care about this, and and aren't just going to let things continue the way that they have. This continues to be an issue in our world.

Anna Duncan: 36:34

And if somebody has taken the time to listen to this, thank you. And and keep working on it. Yeah, keep asking, keep talking about it. Yes.

Kevin Wallace: 36:48

Well to end, what are ways that New Vista specifically has and will continue to help those that are moving through suicidal ideation, and maybe even talked about our involvement in schools and how we just play a part in trying to combat this really large issue of suicide in our world today.

Anna Duncan: 37:18

So I know across our region, we have staff that collaborate with schools that go into the schools to see kids and provide therapy in school, especially sometimes within transportation can be a barrier. Yeah, we are happy to come do have this kind of conversation with teachers, coaches, administrators to help them gain the confidence that they can do that and know the resources of what to do next. So if you're somebody that is struggling with some of this, please know that New Vista is here to help. We have amazing counselors, who, as I said before, it can help you through this can talk to you about it can help walk this journey with you. You don't have to do it alone. We have a crisis line that serves our communities 365 days a year, and we are always available. Especially in those crisis situations to call in. They can provide assistance, resource support, all of those things, again, to help walk through this with you.

Kevin Wallace: 38:33

Yes, it's also important to, I'll emphasize what you said about the resources that we tried to put out into the community. This podcast being one of them, like this podcast exists to equip our communities in knowing how to handle these really difficult yet prevalent issues and topics that we've been talking about in this episode and previous episodes. So gosh, if there's a even future topics that people are wanting to hear more about, please feel free to reach out to us. You can reach out to us through social media, even follow us on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter, LinkedIn, all those social media sites at newvistaky. And we'd love to hear from you. And we'd love to hear about how maybe these these episodes have been helpful for you. And maybe some success stories. And I didn't know this about this topic, but I learned this and I've seen some change in my life because of this or the change in my communities because of this. And so we're always we love hearing how maybe this has been helpful for you. But yeah, through our social media, it's a great outlet to get some resources and see how New Vista can help you and/or the people in your life to see the good ahead. And that is our motto, of course. So New Vista is is here to help. We hope that this podcast as well in this episode specifically can help you navigate a really, really tough conversation and area of life. So Well, Anna, thank you so much for being on. And this was just such a helpful, hard, but really, really important conversation that I think you just articulated so well. And so thank you for doing what you do and being so good at it. I'm just very positively impacted by the words that you shared with us. So no, thanks. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you. Well, thank you for joining us in today's episode and well done for making it through a heavy conversation. This podcast is brought to you by New Vista. We assist individuals, children and families in the enhancement of their well being through mental health, substance use, and Intellectual and Developmental Disability Services. We see the good ahead for all individuals in our communities. If you need help, call our 24-Hour Helpline at 1.800.928.8000 or visit our website www.newvista.org We hope you enjoyed today's episode, and we'll see you next time